I might switch to wayland when xfce starts to have decent support for it. I’m not a ride or die Xorg fan, I just want to keep using the DE I’m used to.
Yeah AFAIK the only two DEs that fully support Wayland are the big two - Gnome and KDE. and a few tiling window managers like Sway and Hyprland.
I look forward to a world where all modern DEs are fully supportive of Wayland like Cinnamon and Budgie and I know people love their xfce.
Yeah, i can’t explain why I love xfce so much. It’s very much like a windows 9x style desktop with some QOL improvements (press alt to click drag a window is such a great feature)
Same currently using xfce with opensuse (prob going back to Cachyos + Cinnamon)
to the unavoidable “it’s been 15 years” comments: 15-year-old x11 was a piece of shit. the difference is that we had no alternative so we had to put up with it
I’m glad Wayland is maturing and taking over. Even most of the X11 devs hated X11 which tells you something.
You know Wayland will be ready when these threads don’t get 100 comments
I think Wayland just attracts trolls in the same way as systemd does.
Yeah. Over on
MoronixPhoronix, every article about Rust, systemd, Wayland or –to a lesser extent– GNOME is a troll fest.SystemD is really bloated tho
I’m not saying we should all be using runit, but with systemD making more and more services only work through their init system just creates more vendor lock in
Like, who needs a cronjob alternative that only works if you use SystemD, limiting your software to people using it and locking out everyone needing a less bloated init system like runit? And who needs a systemD calendar?
Depends what you mean by bloat. It has a very large repo, but it compiles into little commands with least privilege execution. A lot of those commands are specifically there so someone doesn’t have to pull in other repos with a larger attack surface. e.g. there is a time sync daemon to replace having to pull in ntp which is a lot more complex and fraught and the one thing most desktops need of NTP which is to set the clock.
Systemd won’t be done until they port libre office to it dammit!
Wayland is already ready and majority of linux desktop users are using it without issue.
As an average desktop user, I’ve run into very little pushback on Wayland. Its made huge leaps in a short amount of time.
Yes it’s been stable for some time with a couple of caveats - you need a decent graphics driver and not be using apps with edge cases.
Here is a simple example of an edge case and it’s not hard to find people blaming Wayland even though with some thought this was a security issue - apps like Zoom, Discord, MS Teams want to do screen sharing which is easy in X11 because it has non existent security - just steal the screen bitmap. That’s a problem.
Wayland (the protocol) provides no means for one app to grab the screen, or other apps. This is by design for security. Instead the app must be a good citizen and send a “i want to screen cast” message to the xdg-desktop-portal (a service provider implemented by GNOME, KDE etc.), the desktop asks for user consent and then the app gets a video stream. So it’s a lot more secure but it requires the app and the WM do things properly.
Desktops and apps have matured and these issues are thankfully going away. I think the biggest hurdle left is proper graphics drivers, especially the problem of getting NVidia drivers working.
Thankfully I haven’t run into any problems with Nvidia drivers. My main rig is running a RTX 3080 with proprietary drivers and my side-project NixOS laptop uses a GTX 970m with nouveau drivers no problem.
It gets me curious about the possibility of specific GPU manufacturers having more of a problem than some. There has to be some discrepancy, because I do see that some users have issues right out the gate, with some being seasoned Linux vets. Whereas I’m mediocre at best and its all been plug and play for me.
I do like the idea of added security, as much as the permission popups annoy the hell out of me. The more Linux becomes popular, the more we’ll need extra security down the road. I hope we can simply whitelist packages at some point, though. Then things become less of a Wayland security issue and more of a user choice thing. If a user chooses a bad package to whitelist, then that’s on them at that point.
I don’t know the details, so it more than likely isn’t as easy as that, however.
yeah i think it was a couple of gnomes ago, i never noticed the chageover
Same. I booted up NixOS with Gnome around 5 months ago and it took a second for me to realize it was defaulting to Wayland. I was running it on an ancient Asus gaming laptop with nouveau drivers and the experience was overall smooth. Had it multi screened with my TV, too.
until you start using it and screenrecords dont work, multimonitor setups work once and then fail forever… systemd,wayland, unity, ubuntuOne and all that stupid shit can right f off.
Screen records do work providing the app asks for a screen cast in the proper way (which BTW is not via Wayland but through a message to a DBus service). The service and the desktop then ask permission from the user if necessary. X11 didn’t give a damn about protecting the contents of your screen and any app whether it was beneficial or malicious could do it with impunity. So you should see this as a major security improvement - you can screen record but only if permission is granted.
maybe?! but from the votes here you can see that the wayland supporters can be nothing but shit people. and that is how nixos died. and this is how wayland is already dead.
nixos had a toxic insane community of ppl like this: other opionion = downvote. Or check mozilla…millions of request for improvement, but the idiots focus on telemetry, terrible guis and so on. Firefox is at 1% marketshare??
I have seen it too often by now. if criticism like that triggers the hardcore fans, you know you do not ever want to be part of that fan base.
furthermore, you are a disappointment.
Screen records do work providing the app asks for a screen cast in the proper way (which BTW is not via Wayland but through a message to a DBus service).
Why do you still exist? I try understanding what the purpose of your reply could be? Screenrecords do not work. For plenty of people. Google it. Yet you feel entitled to share you smalldick energy wisdom of “proper way”. That is exactly the vibe of the shit ppl. You do not help Wayland or x11 or anything, you just fap into your own mouth because nobody can ever love you like that. Go get help.
Why do you still exist? I try understanding what the purpose of your reply could be? Screenrecords do not work. For plenty of people. Google it. Yet you feel entitled to share you smalldick energy wisdom of “proper way”. That is exactly the vibe of the shit ppl. You do not help Wayland or x11 or anything, you just fap into your own mouth because nobody can ever love you like that. Go get help.
Wow, someone needs to grow up. You laid into Wayland when screen recording doesn’t even go through Wayland. The app asks the WM to screen record via DBus. A more constructive response would have been “thanks I didn’t know that”, or perhaps “oh it’s a driver issue”, or “it’s an issue with that WM/ffmpeg/pipewire or whatever”, or anything else likely to be the underlying cause. But it’s not Wayland. Have you got that? Not Wayland. There is no need to be sore and immature about it.
I’ve never had a problem with multi monitor (knock on wood). I had to get around screen recording in the past, but I thought that was ironed out. I’ll check that out today.
The only hiccups I’ve run into so far is that the KDE color picker (the dedicated widget and the screenshot tool) is off by one shade. I grab #222222 and it gets #212121. I got around that by using Flameshot. And that’s more on KDE’s end afaik.
The other hiccup is constant alerts asking for input permissions when I use something like an autohotkey or autoclicker.
I’m not saying its perfect yet. I’m saying they’ve busted ass getting it to where it is in such a short amount of time. Its incredibly usable to me for how young Wayland is.
I am saying the devs are the assholes I will spit on at any con. From google search anyone can see plenty ppl have problems with multimonitor and more. the community is just toxic like the other fail-communities. E.g. systemd…equally wrong and crap. And I am sure a majority of former windows users will yeet their brain into the arena to say that it is wrong to critize systemd. if systemd would be good, the adoption rate would not have been overtaken by alpine linux. and so wayland, electron and all the other stupid ideas are dead on arrival while ppl will still use and defend them like they are paid by redhat.
How can I fix the multi monitor thing?? Whenever I connect my TV screen everything freezes unless I unplug one of my desktop monitors.
I finally switched when I moved from Arch to Fedora and it’s worked fantastically for me. This is where the Linux desktop is heading now for sure.
“rough start” is putting it mildly. 🤭
Yeah it’s at the point where i’m wondering if i still even need xorg. I’m still keeping it around just in case for now, but i could very easily purge it from my system anytime since i’m using nixos and all my xorg related settings are in a specific file. The main pet peeve i have with wayland is gaming related, and should hopefully improve when wine and proton go native wayland. I have a dual monitor setup and games always choose the wrong monitor by default, which means i can only use the resolution and refreshrate of the secondary monitor. I have a keybind to set the primary xwayland monitor with xrandr, which solves the problem, but it is a bit hacky. I also need to toggle vrr on and off with a keybind because it causes flickering on my monitor. It’s a bit annoying but atleast it works, on xorg you can’t even use vrr with multi monitor to begin with.
My biggest issue gaming under Wayland is the fact that certain games can’t capture the mouse when run full screen with multiple monitors. I’ve got a number of games that exhibit the issue, but the easiest way to experience it is to try and run CS2 as wayland native (so not under xwayland - As the performance overheads running xwayland are notable running CS2) - Within 10 mins you’ll be looking at the ground with the mouse pointer on your secondary monitor.
Furthermore, running gamescope doesn’t fix the problem - And yes, I’m running the correct commands under gamescope.
I mean - This is basic functionality that should be an integral part of any modern OS. Under X11 running the same dual matched monitors everything works perfectly with great FPS.
i deleted the x session files so they don’t show up in my greeter. They got annoying by now, for me. I used to shit on wayland, but it’s inching closer and closer to being usable. and i use an nvidia gtx 1080, so that’s saying something
Have you tried running your games with gamescope?
Edit: nevermind, I think gamescope doesn’t work with wayland
I think it does work, but from my understanding when nested inside another wayland session, thing like vrr don’t work, which brings me back to the xorg problem, but my current workaround works for me, so now it’s just a matter of hoping it will improve and become less tedious.
I wish Nvidia agreed.
I dunno why but I can’t even log into KDE when I select wayland. The screen just turns black and unresponsive :(
Something similar happens to me on my desktop (debian 13) - it goes black then brings me back to the login screen. But in my case it’s probably the nvidia drivers (proprietary). Not certain, though. Still happy on X11 for the meantime.
I’m running Bazzite on KDE Wayland with the proprietary Nvidia drivers just fine. I think you’ve got another issue causing this.
That’s definitely possible. I’m not familiar with Bazzite. Did you get those drivers from Nvidia’s website? That’s my only issue with Debian 13 right now. Everything else is working as expected. Also the reason I had to get the drivers from the website is somehow I couldn’t enable some stuff (like amd-pstate) on the default Bookworm kernel and had to use a backported one (custom kernels don’t work with the drivers from apt).
I’d definitely recommend against using drivers downloaded from a website, on general principles.
custom kernels don’t work with the drivers from apt
Check if there’s a dkms version - I know that’s the way it’s set up on Arch, if using a non-standard kernel you install the kernel headers, and dkms lets you build just the module for your kernel.
Thank you for the tip. I will definitely look into this.
Edit: yeah, I wasn’t too happy with having to get the propriety drivers from nvidia myself.
I’m not sure if this is what you mean, but I do want to clarify - the drivers in the repository are still proprietary drivers from Nvidia, just tested and packaged by the distribution maintainers, dkms is just some magic that lets them work with arbitrary kernels with minimal compilation. Unless you’re using nouveau, which I don’t think is ready for most uses.
I understand that. What I meant was I was not happy with having to go out of my way to download other drivers. My apologies - I realized my previous comment was not very clear. Also, thank you for the dkms explanation. :)
I’ve been in linux for a short while already, but this is the first time I’ve used debian with an nvidia gpu. It’s…a bit different from what I’ve experienced with arch on my laptops (probably because they don’t have a discrete gpu).
No, they’re included with, and updated by, the OS. But they are the proprietary ones that are available on Nvidia’s website.
I’ll try again this weekend. But that’s the only thing I’ve changed before being unable to log in a wayland sessions. Hope it works though.
I have a shitload of bug/weird behavior with Wayland, I hope it gets better but for me it is not there yet.
Like what? (Curious)
Here is some of them (they are all intermitent) :
- Wrong sensitivity with the mouse
- wrong tiling of my windows with multiple screens, (like I do a full screen and the window will disapear or occupy half of the bottom of the screen for example.
- black screen after coming out of sleep
- some gtk applicatipn have random widgets not working (but some do in the same window/frame…)
- sometimes when I try to share my screen with a native wayland app it just goes to black (and sharing with an X app I have to select two times what I want to share on top of in the app)
- sometimes sub menus are just misplaced
- some of my appimages gets broken with wayland
- some x apps are blurry
I forget a lot, but it’s a lot of minor issues that piles up and gets frustrating
Need X-kill replacement.
Plasma and Hyprland already have one
Hm, I think that’s what Ctrl + Meta + Esc* does for me on KDE? Unless there’s more to x-kill than just killing windows/processes with a mouse click.
Edit: Originally said Ctrl + Esc, shame on my poor memory
TIL about Ctrl-Esc. I’ve been using Debian/KDE for years and only now find this out… sheesh.
Sorry, Ctrl + Win (or relevant OS button) + Esc, but yeah it’s been pretty useful in a pinch
You can use Meta or Super as a more agnostic term
I thought “Meta” was AltGr and Super is the “windows key”.
I never heard of AltGr reffered to as “Meta”, except maybe in the sense of “Emacs modifier” which might be bound to it. Super is definitely the key between LCTL and LALT though
There is actually less to ’xkill’. It nukes the X window from orbit in a very violent manner. The owning process(-tree) will usually just instantly curl up and die.
The main benefit is that it doesn’t actually kill the process, it only nukes the window. As such, you can get rid of windows belonging to otherwise unkillable processes (zombies, etc).
Also, it’s fun. Just don’t miss the window and accidentally kill your WM. (Beat that Wayland)
Is fractional scaling functional?
It has been since like 2022 at least for me. I was on X11 and it looked blurry as hell. Same thing on wayland. One day, out of the blue a KDE update dropped and boom everything was crisp and clear. I thank the lords of wayland everyday 🛐. Since then, it has only gotten better
Awesome. I tried Wayland a year or two ago but it broke QT stuff back then so it was a no-go. I should really give it another try soon.
For me X11 just flat out doesn’t work, fucks up the icons and scaling. Unusable.
Xorg scaling has always been horrible. But Wayland broke stuff like OpenCV window showing in the past with QT.
It was for a long time.
I use that on Hyprland for a year or 2 now
At leasr it just works with tailsOS
In this current state it’s currently only in a few des (kde and gnome and lxqt has it stable) and windows manager(wayfire and Sway and qtile has it stable) but maybe in the future it will be most des
